User blog comment:Doge and pupper/11-12D Dimentio debunk/@comment-26374068-20180515022104/@comment-26374068-20180516202109

@Bendy:

1. I know the misconception of dimensions. It even says so on the Wikipedia article that the idea of dimensions referring to parallel universes comes entirely from fiction. I know that. However, that was never the point I was making... Jigen is the primary word in Japanese used to refer to dimensions. In fiction, there are actual examples referring to sunpou as universes and jigen as spatial dimensions; it's really not something I made up. Hell, in the case of SPM, it mentions The Void being a "hole in the very dimensional fabric of space ." It is specified here... so I feel you're nitpicking for the sake of nitpicking.

Furthermore, "jigen" is actually the primary word for "dimension" in Japanese. Sunpou is not.

2. I never said this subjective premise of mine was objective. You're putting words in my mouth. The whole idea I was even going off of was that these details seemingly point towards String Theory in works in the verse. I specify that on my profiles, and I specify that it's "an odd detail" in the scan.

String Theory Soup being a name is irrelevant in this case. A "Healing Potion" is a name, but it still represents what it's supposed to be. Supposed to do. The description of this item says that it will reveal all the secrets of the universe to you... something String Theory itself offers to do, explaining countless phenomena we humans can't reasonably explain. Then it goes on to say that man was never meant to know it anyways... which is consistent with reality, where we can't actually prove String Theory's existence. You're saying that we should ignore its name for the sake of ignoring it and acting like it has no connection to the description of the soup itself, when it does indeed have all the matching characteristics. Just as a Healing Potion represents what it actually is, String Theory Soup represents what it actually is. And no, it's not following the same logic. Simply saying "String Theory" wouldn't prove anything, but the  context  within this situation says otherwise; it's literally saying that this answers all the secrets of the universe, not just randomly shoving "String Theory" in there and calling it a day.

And once again, I never stated that this is definitely, for sure String Theory. As a matter of fact, literally any and all feats in fiction are subjective; not everyone is going to agree. In the end, this is my "objective," but I realize it's subjective for the rest of you. And that's not the "actual model" for String Theory; that's a Calabi-Yau manifold. Something related TO String Theory, but not meant to represent it as a whole. What represents String Theory is the strings themselves; it's literally why it's called String Theory.

You're strawmanning my argument here. Never once did I say the name always auto-confirms everything. But if the description of that name portrays it as such, then yes, I do believe we should take it like that. Because then that's actual author intent. String Theory Soup talks about how drinking it will reveal all the secrets of the universe (something String Theory already relates to), and that those secrets were never meant to be known by man (just like String Theory). At that point, its name would reveal exactly what those secrets are. "Big Bang Attack" is a flashy name for an attack but has no canonical description saying it's a Big Bang; Steven Universe is the name of a show and has no feats or statements saying that they can destroy the universe. These are very, very, very different things, Bendy.

3. You completely misunderstood me. I'm not saying that because Lineland makes homages to mathematical dimensions, it's suddenly supporting String Theory... what my original intent with that piece of evidence was, was to show that the Marioverse--specifically this game--outright acknowledges the existence of mathematical dimensions in a Physics sense. Merlon even did so; this is merely supportive.

And here you use another strawman. Not ever did I say that showing some instances of spatial dimensions suddenly means the term will always refer to that. I have already stated openly before that Dimension D is a good piece of evidence to say they mean universe. However, Dimension D is literally pointless to bring up, since context, my friend, is a killer. The statement that brings up a Tier 1 "The Void" in this situation is Merlon's statement; Dimentio's pocket dimension has nothing to do with it. Merlon states, before saying that The Void will destroy all worlds and all dimensions, that it is a hole in the very dimensional fabric of space. This means Merlon was referring to mathematical dimensions at the time of his statement; irregardless, it literally makes no sense for him to separate two things with two entirely separate words yet mean the same thing. "All universes, all universes" doesn't make sense at all, and now we're adding onto the fact that Merlon is purposely trying to separate the two terms? At least in this part of the game--where it matters most--it meant mathematical dimensions, not only due to the fact that the Japanese version is using its primary term for spatial dimensions, but because context says so, and sense itself says so.

4. If you say so, Bendy. I will defend my stance on the Marioverse's canon, though.

Another strawman. When did I say he mentioned String Theory in the description? I've said countless times that the description itself describes String Theory, and the name itself then reveals what the description is talking about.

Why do you have every right to assume that it's saying String Theory doesn't exist in the verse? Its description and its name draw dozens of parallels... I don't understand why them being separated within the same item suddenly invalidates any and all correlation. What, solely because it doesn't outright say it to you every sentence? Back to the Health Potion thing... names and descriptions in games are almost all the time inter-connected. This thing's description goes as far as to talk about real-life things that String Theory applies to, and is called "String Theory Soup," also saying that drinking it--the String Theory Soup--would teach you all the secrets of the universe... So, why then, are we able to assume that its name and description are for some reason not connected, despite them both being a part of the same item?

Butterfly companion? You mean Tippi? Uhm... Bendy, Tippi doesn't make that statement. Merlon does. And even then, Merlon is quoting the Light Prognosticus, which comes from The Ancients, who are constantly emphasized as some sort of supergeniuses. My evidence of them being "aware" of the main multiverse is the fact that they're a part of it; SPM Paper Mario lives in the same house and kingdom as TTYD and PM64 Paper Mario, whose adventures have parallels with the main series; specifically the latter. The Paper Mario games have gone from outright saying they're the same as the other games, to making countless references of actual events and locations, or locations or characters actually reappearing. Also, the statement isn't "all worlds I know of." I feel author intent really gets us here; they're trying to say that everything in the verse is at risk. Nothing will be spared.

As for your "all" counter... okay, yes, I agree all is sometimes a hyperbolic word. Other times, though, it's just a strong word. "All powerful" is hyperbole without strong evidence to back it up, since that's synonymous with omnipotent. But all existence? I don't get how that's hyperbole... I really don't. Especially when the statement comes from supergeniuses who have traveled through the worlds in search for resting places for the Pure Hearts, and when the feat is literally being demonstrated as you travel the worlds; including the literal afterlives.

1. I don't know about Mxy, but I'm sure Nia has more meaning behind it. I'm more concerned about your second point...

2. He didn't take it out of context. The page actually mentions rulebooks and such, saying if the thing doesn't do exactly as it says it does in gameplay, it can't be legit. For example, if an item states it'll heal all broken limbs but merely heals your HP, that'd be Flavor Text because it's not demonstrated in-game, despite the fact that the descriptions and such--the lore of the item--says otherwise. Gaming limitations are tough to overcome; designers specifically have to dumb down things to not break the immersion. In a way, using Flavor Text is using game mechanics over lore.

@PloZ:

1. I do. Merlon outright saying The Void is a hole in the dimensional fabric of space before saying it'll consume all worlds and all dimensions. The context itself says so. For some reason, both you and Bendy seem to have forgotten all about Merlon saying this and have specifically targeted jigen itself; as if I just grabbed that and called that my argument. Of course I'm going to look for context, guys.

Dimension D is, as I explained above, a moot point, since the statements that actually matter have context saying that they're mathematical dimensions. And my proof for higher cosmologies stems from the evidence I've already submitted.

I know jigen has other meanings, too. However, it's the primary word for dimension in the mathematical sense; and with context adding onto that, I simply don't see why it would mean anything else.

2. Yes, I get your point; but you're missing mine. It's not just  a name. I don't know how many times I gotta say this, but if it was just a name, I wouldn't believe the verse runs off of it. The fact that the item itself is literally saying that you can learn all the secrets of the universe by drinking it--outright confirming the cosmology has secrets related to it (which is then revealed by the name--String Theory Soup)--is why I say the verse is 11-dimensional.

And just as Bendy did before you, you're using an example that doesn't work here. You're using things that just have a random name slapped onto them without a serious description to back it up. Let me explain this to you: Do you see the difference?
 * Big Bang Attack: Has no official description saying it actually is a Big Bang, nor does it have anything that actually confirms it has that level of power. It's the name of an attack.
 * Collapsing Star Roaring Cannon: Literally just a name with, again, no description to say it's actually a collapsing star. Sure, it has a 5-B feat, but nothing in the star level realms; that won't support its name. It's got nothing going for it; therefore, it's flashy.
 * Encounter Beyond Time: Literally the name of a movie with, again, absolutely nothing saying that's not just a flashy statement and is actually serious.
 * String Theory Soup: Has a seriously-written description that outright says drinking this soup will reveal all the secrets of the universe to you; secrets man was never meant to know. What perhaps could those secrets be? Oh, the name! String Theory.

I don't get how you could argue confetti when there's nothing in this game's agenda that involves such. All the stuff I've been trying to prove was that this game's very gimmicks are built around spatial dimensions; it would thus make sense that this is String Theory if the whole gimmick of the game is based around things akin to String Theory. And then the fact that there's already an artifact in the verse that says it exists in the verse.

3. You seem to be grasping at a point I don't ever recall making. Never did I say lower dimensions existing meant higher dimensions, nor did I say that lower dimensions existing means "dimensions" always means spatial. You're strawmanning. What I said was that having an entire level based off of spatial dimensions strengthens the idea that such things existing were a strong intention of the designers. And in the blog, I specified that the terms "dimensional" and "dimension" weren't the same thing in the verse... I don't understand what you're trying to get at here.

It does prove something. That mathematical dimensions were something the designers had in mind... and that only serves to support other points I've made. Infinite-dimensional Archie Sonic would come from saying things that are clearly universes are now spatial dimensions... I'm not doing that here. Yes, dimensions are sometimes universes in Super Paper Mario; I've acknowledged that this whole time. Dimension D exists. What I've been trying to prove is that doesn't matter, because Merlon's entirely separate statements had mathematical dimensions in context before saying that all dimensions would be consumed by The Void.

Strawman once more. When did I say that this world having mathematical equations in its sky bolstered another's? I never inter-correlated Lineland and Gloam Valley if that's what you're trying to say here. Gloam Valley was its own separate point; the point about the strings. Lineland I used to prove that the designers had mathematical dimensions in mind. And now that I think about it, if they had mathematical dimensions in mind for these levels, then those being actual strings from String Theory wouldn't be far-fetched, now would it? Perhaps that's an association fallacy, but I really don't see how, as I'm not saying this thing's equations proves this thing for this world or this thing's strings proves this thing for this world; I'm saying that because one world had mathematical dimensions in mind, even a small reference, such could be done for another world.

4. I addressed them being separate in the blog... these things have been done for countless characters already; Paper Jam was purely for marketing purposes. It tried to create a canon for a series that never had one, nor wanted one, nor will ever have one according to the creator. Miyamoto's statement of "roles" is enough to easily prove that them being separate isn't a game-changing canonicity problem; it's been done before in the verse. It happens whenever it is most convenient for the plot; the characters take different roles. The role in this game was for them to be separate, just as the role in Mario Kart 8 is for Bowser and Dry Bowser to be separate. Also, uhm, I'm afraid you're mixing me up with Dino Ranger Black. DRB believes he's a different Paper Mario cause he's made of paper; I believe they're all one and the same. Also, I don't understand how I'm just throwing random arguments in there without strength or accuracy; they are quite literally showing countless occasions where the main series crosses over with the Paper Mario series as if they were the same. Many, many times before Paper Jam, and now, many, many times after. '' Again, the series never cared about canon. It does what it wants. ''

Please read above for "String Theory not being mentioned." I addressed the argument with Bendy.

As for your comma argument...

com·ma

ˈkämə

noun

1.

a punctuation mark indicating a pause between parts of a sentence. It is also used to separate items in a list and to mark the place of thousands in a large numeral.

Worlds and dimensions were separated here. He mentions all existence, and then worlds and dimensions, as if both of those two make up existence itself. Moments before he says The Void is a hole in the dimensional fabric of space, pretty much confirming he meant spatial dimensions. A comma is a separater, it's not meant to mean, "Oh, these two things are the same." In this context, Merlon was listing things that are part of all existence... all worlds (universes), all dimensions (mathematical dimensions). The fact that he mentions both using different words practically proves this, IMO. It wouldn't make sense for him to repeat two entirely different words, yet have them both connote the same thing.